Caffeinated Clint
Hits back with “Rocky Balboa”
It’s been 16 years since Rocky Balboa made mince out of Tommy Gunn in that Philly Alley, now, armed with aches, pains and, of course, Paulie, the Italian Stallion returns for one last bout. Writer/Producer/Director Sylvester Stallone explains how he has talked back to the ring for Rocky Balboa.
Why is it that some projects don’t connect with audiences, but then when it’s rocky, it all hits up again?
Rocky is a very unusual case. I think the country was a little more sedate, at least in the way they released films, but ‘Rocky’ came out on two screens, so it really took a long time for it to gain momentum. But yeah, it was out there for almost a year. So it burnt its way into the American consciousness, and I became incredibly identified with it, probably inextricably, forever. And when I would go against that, everything was held up to ‘Rocky,’ so if the projects I found myself involved with didn’t have a certain kind of heart, or a certain kind of expectancy of the audience wanted to be taken on, that kind of a journey again, I think they felt it was a disappointment, it was a letdown. Because right after Rocky was ‘F.I.S.T.,’ and ‘F.I.S.T.’ is a pretty good film, but it just – I think it didn’t have enough of what people were expecting, you know. And then I went with ‘Paradise Alley,’ which was a character who was kind of disdainful. I mean, I like the character a lot [laughs], but he was the antithesis of Rocky, so that kind of got people confused, see, because I never really fit into the character actor category. I would’ve liked to, but it just didn’t happen. So that’s what I think it is, I think the certain kind of bench was set, the mark, benchmark was set, at a certain level, and when people didn’t get the same sort of feel, I think they felt betrayed. Whereas ‘Copland’ worked for them, you know what I mean? It wasn’t a financial hit, but people who saw it liked it, because it had the same kind of heart. I think that’s what relates best, when I can do films that have a little bit of an emotional journey, rather than just action for action’s sake, same thing with ‘First Blood.’ The best action film I’ve ever done, for that reason.
How much could you relate to Rocky, as far as the comeback? What’s the line of comparison between you and the character?
Well, I’m not sure, but they’re very similar, they are. I would be trying to fool you if I said oh yeah, it’s not an alter ego, but just an out of body experience, has nothing to do with me. No, the issues that work are very personal issues, and I’ve been lucky enough to be able to take what has been bothering me, questions I’ve asked about life in general, and have the body of Rocky to put it into. If I were asking these questions, it wouldn’t have the same impact, as coming out of this guy who is this innocent. You know, he’s a tough guy, but he’s child like. So when he asks questions, it comes at you from a very, kind of like comical angle, the way he speaks and his vernacular and his pentameter, his rhythm. But all the issues, the ones that have worked, the films that have worked, in the Rocky thing, it’s always about something I’m going through, like in ‘Rocky 3,’ when he’s afraid to fight because of fear, because once you acquire everything you’ve ever wanted, now you don’t want to lose it. So that was what that was all about, overcoming fear, and when Mickey dies, you lose your foundation, it’s like now you’re facing the world, you know, unprepared. And then in this one, it’s about how do you deal with grief? Because see as I get older, and Rocky says it in this film, the older I get, the more things I gotta leave behind. That’s life. And no one prepares you for that. And you think that it gets easier when you get older, it doesn’t. As a child you don’t deal with loss that often, as an adult you do. And it’s brutal. A lot of people collapse, they lose their zest for life, and this is like how you would try to counter that.
How do you feel about fighting age, and how that is dealt with in this film?
When I was younger, you know, I had no idea what an older person goes through. And even though I don’t feel that mature, you know, I look at the numbers and I am. So I go huh, I guess maybe I’m not that different than other people. So other seniors, or mature adults, also have a feeling of like God, I just at the very end, I want to feel as though I’ve gotten my – my most enjoyment out of this life, I want to get, like I want to try all the things I’ve never tried. And quite often that doesn’t happen. But the dream is to do that. To be fulfilled. And at the very end I don’t think it’s about having money, because I’ve met many billionaires who aren’t happy, I don’t think it’s about acquisition, having land, having this and that, I think peace of mind, as a mature person, is number one. Where you feel as though, God, I’m really at peace with myself, the beast is out, I’ve done most of the things I’ve wanted, I’ve raised my children, and you know, yes, I’ve maybe had to sell out a few times in my life, because we all have to sell out on the road of life, but in the very end I made up for that and did it my way, and like I feel good about being myself. And I think that kind of sense of peace, is what I was fighting for in this film. That’s why Rocky gets out of the ring, he’s – it doesn’t matter, it wasn’t about winning or losing, he was never gonna fight again, it’s just he did it. His son saw him, what he used to do, he’s proud, he brought everything together, he got rid of a lot of the grief he felt for Adrian, so now he’s ready to move on with his life, so that’s what that was all about, and that’s – you know, it’s a fantasy, but I think a lot of people wish that they could have an outlet in their later years, for all those pent up dreams that never got a chance to be displayed.
What was it like to train for this film compared to the others? And having a real boxer opposite you? And did you have this, “Don’t be under my shadow thing” (A scene in the film with his son) with your own children?
Yeah, I’ve played that last scene a lot with my son. And I’m sure I’ll play it again, many more times. It’s a dilemma of being my son, it’s not an easy thing to be, and I pretty much tell him the same thing, you have two choices. To live in the shadow and shrink, or step outside, but whatever you do, do not use it as an excuse. That just doesn’t hold water. The training for this was extremely difficult and riddled with a lot of injuries [laughs], so things that worked thirty years ago, you know, are a little rusty. Kind of felt like the tin man before he got his can of oil. Very, very stiff. But no, it was the help of a handful of Advil every morning [laughs]. But a lot of injuries, even the champ broke his knuckle, sparring with me, and I broke my foot, so I’m in like a cast hobbling around the ring, so we looked like two mummies, we were that – and we really had, I swear to you, it was like in slow motion. Does that hurt? Yes, it hurts. It hurts? Yes it hurts. And when we got to Vegas, I was really nervous, because I had to comedown the aisle, with nine thousand people, I’m not ready at all, and I’ve got a world champion there who just knocked out the best pound for pound fighter in the past ten years, so I said Antonio [Tarver], I have an idea of how this should work. I mean, I think we should go from this corner to that corner to there. I’m not sure how we get there, let’s just actually move. And if you hit me, you hit me. The gloves were a little worked, so they had a little extra padding, I mean they hurt, because I got rocked at least three times, badly. The second knockout, I’m trying to struggle to get up, that’s real. Now I get it. Because I wanted Rocky to bounce right up, like yeah, that didn’t hurt. But the third time he knocked me down I went wow. Now I get it. Call it stunned. I was stunned. So there’s more realistic fighting in this, there’s a lot of it. That’s why I wanted – also we worked in the editing room, that if you freeze frame, anywhere, you’ll see the contact, there’s none of that, like the other films, where you can – [makes hit noise] oh that was a hit! No, this is on the money, unfortunately.
Do you think the legacy of this film will live as Rocky being a real boxer?
Well, they’re right, especially in Philadelphia, that line has been blurred, but by no means would I ever put Rocky in the realistic categories of a Joe Frazier, or these real fighters, or Mike Tyson. But you’re right, I think there is a void in identifiable boxers, you have Joe Frazier, because it was like they were more than just fighters, they were stylists, they had a presence. We don’t have that today, because see there used to be one division, then two, now there’s four or five, so you have five champions, five heavyweight champs, so people go who? So they’re constantly changing, and it’s I think destroyed the sport, it really has. Because the best does not rise to the top anymore. But Rocky, I think what has happened, is Rocky has become the legacy, it’s defined determination. Even though you’re hurt, you don’t have the greatest skill in the world, but if you play with ferocity, you sometimes overwhelm your opponent. In the real life world of Rocky’s, they mostly get knocked out. That’s it. They go into it with heart, but they lose. They rarely win. Luckily, I’m writing this thing, so[laughs]. He still loses, but he loses cool.
What was it like to bring Rocky out of the basement?
Okay, uh, I have to admit, that I had this real beast in me, it’s been gnawing at me for ten, twelve years, how badly Rocky [V] fared, and I take all the blame for that, I think it was a reflection of my lack of focus at the time, and it just was translated on to film, it’s really interesting, it’s almost a CAT scan of where you are. And it really defeated all the other Rocky’s, and it bothered me, because the people that had been so loyal to it, so that beast was finally eliminated with this film. I felt as though I touched on the subjects and delivered a film that people can relate to, and then when he says, Adrian we did it, it’s like, we did it. In other words, we got as much out of this life, out of this movie life, cinematic life, and he just dissolves, and that would be it, so yes, the beast is definitely out. And training has been, and working in Philadelphia was a very, very unusual situation, because that city does believe that Rocky is real. It transcended, like no one called me Sylvester, it’s Rocky. So I went back to the neighborhood, which is a very unusual thing for an actor, to go back where children were five years old, and then to go back and they, you know, have four children themselves, they’ve grown up, they literally – and that’s Rocky’s house, that’s where he drinks, that’s where – yeah, yeah, for real. It’s an incredible compliment, that it’s become kind of like this mythic character, like a phoenix, does it live, does it die? But they’ve embraced it like no other city you’ve ever seen. Philadelphia, they throw ice balls at Santa Claus. It’s a tough crowd. You’ve seen it with the Eagles, they let you know it. They’re not shy, it’s brutal. But you’re like, Rocky, it’s just – they’ve embraced him as one of their own, because he represents like this kind of like regular guy who is just willing to take the hits and keep going.
Were you always planning on writing this script from the point that Adrian passed away?
No. And it wasn’t working. I was using the George Foreman format, which would be this, he had a youth center in Houston, it was going broke, Rocky has a youth center in Philly that’s going broke. He goes to the bank for a loan, Adrian’s still alive, bank says no, goes to the church for a loan, nothing. Goes to a pawn shop, nothing. So he goes you know, I’m gonna go out and do some club fights, and get the money so I can pay the rent, like George. And one thing led to another, until finally he does eighteen, nineteen, and people go wow, you should continue on this, and it becomes a commercial, like guys like Don King, which is what happened with George Foreman, you’ve now become a commercial- I guess you might say, a commodity. That he can really sell. And that’s what happened to George Foreman. But all Adrian did during the film was like don’t do that, don’t do that, don’t do that. We’ve seen that. So the movie’s about trying to save the gym, and the kids, and it wasn’t about really any kind of visceral, emotional journey. Wasn’t about dealing with life. I went boy, this is all about plot, and a simple subject, the gym. Rocky I was about confusion, loneliness, brotherhood, self awareness, it was just those subjects, and at the very end, finally not even caring about the victories, it’s about the love of Adrian, that’s what it was all about, call it the ‘Adrian factor’. So, I said what am I gonna do? You have to pull a man’s heart out. And you take away the thing that he loves the most in the world, take it out of his life, he now plummets to the depths of despair. And there’s nothing more traumatic than taking Adrian out of his life. I had to call Talia [Shire], who I’d been talking to about the other script, I said I worked out the plot. It finally works. She goes “Oh that’s so great. What’s my part?” I said, “Dead. [laughs] You’re dead, and we’re working -no seriously, seriously, it opens up, I’m on a folding chair, you know, looking at your tombstone.” She said “come on!” I said “Yeah. But I bring roses.” And she’s great, I talked to her the other day, and she finally got it, and she’s very cerebral, she goes “Oh I get it, it’s the journey through Sisyphus and down the River Styx.” I said “Okay, that’s close enough, yeah.” That’s exactly what it is, it’s Dante’s Inferno, down the River Styx, okay. But she’s great.
What’s it like working with Burt Young again? You must have a real shorthand at this point.
Yeah, we do. Burt [Young] is a character, you know what I mean, that’s him. He tends to be a bit more affable, but he – what can you say, it’s just like, you just put the camera on him, and he does stuff that is very, very unique, and he’s Paulie. Like I’m Rocky, he’s Paulie. [laughs] No getting around it. This time, he actually had a few more scenes, that’ll be on the DVD, they were taken out of the film, because it was just getting too emotional, because he was having also nervous breakdowns over Adrian, whatever, but he performed really well, there were some very dramatic scenes, but look, I’m in there with him, [laughs] I just had to cut them. It just didn’t work. But he delivered the goods.
Do you think boxing is a way to get out anger? And what would you do if your daughter tried boxing?
I wish my daughters would box, you know [laughs]. I’m so worried about the guys coming up to them, I would love them to be able to smack a guy right off a bar stool, that would be – I would feel very, very confident in her going out at night, if she could take all the guys in the neighborhood. But that’s not happening. But boxing is a great way to vent, I don’t know if there’s a better way, I think for women too, there’s something so primal about it, and it’s the best exercise in the world, even if you don’t ever get in the ring, it’s the best – but yes, like I do wish my daughters would fight, but they won’t. And boxing is the best release of I think aggression there is.
Of all the characters you’ve played, are we gonna see any of the others come back? ‘Tango and Cash’ 2?
Well, I’ve been working on this thing called ‘Rhinestone.’ [laughs] ‘Rhinestone Cowboy.’ That’s my contribution to birth control, put that on and nobody wants to touch. Just kidding, just kidding, sorry. It’s a PC saying. Uh. No, that would be it, because Rambo’s a character that I think was not fully expressed in the last one, even though Afghanistan was the downfall, it was Russia’s Vietnam, what happened was about ten days before the movie came out, Gorbachev comes over, and basically kisses Nancy Reagan on the cheek, and the Cold War, fifty years old, is over. And now I’m the bad guy. It’s true. Why are you a Red baiter? I said two weeks ago, we were dropping bombs on these guys, now…so it’s true, so anytime you do a film that deals with a political subject, you never know. And even though I’m doing it again, but it’s extremely volatile. But no, it would just be Rambo, because it’s a character that I think is completely out of sync with the way things are, he’s so primitive, and he’s such a – he’s so broken in spirit, that he lives this monastic life out in the jungle, and I think there’s an interesting character study, I haven’t seen anything like it lately.
What about doing more smaller films like ‘Copland,’ that only made twenty million dollars?
Yeah. Twenty million dollars. Remember them days? [laughs] No, I’d love to do films like – early on, everyone should do, every time they do a big film they should do a little film. It keeps you grounded. So I would like to probably direct Poe after this, so I wouldn’t be in it, I would just be behind the camera, but it’s something I’ve wanted to do, I don’t know [laughs], you know I’m talking about it so much, I feel like I’ve made it fifty times. It’ll probably bomb anyway, but I’ll do it, you know, it’s one of those tough subjects, but it’s a fantastic character piece. So that’s what I would probably do, then after that who knows, who knows.
And the veteran’s journey for Rambo?
Well the veteran’s journey is – [sighs] I wouldn’t say this is a veteran’s journey; it’s more like the veteran mentality of the Vietnam War. The soldiers today I think are vastly different, a different breed, you know, I think they’re a little bit more aware, the other guy’s a bit more naïve, and they went headlong into these crazy situations, I mean look at the death toll. It’s fifty two thousand, it’s like, by today’s standards, it’s unbelievable. And a quarter of a million suicides after that, from just people that were damaged by the war. But you bring up these- it’s just in his attitude, and his demeanor, that you know he’s still quite destroyed, or distraught I should say, by what he’s been through, yet he can’t escape it. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t.
What is it that drives you to succeed; the way Rocky is driven so hard to succeed in these films?
Well, adversity and fear of knowing that I didn’t try. There’s – it’s why I didn’t sell the first one, it wasn’t because I was brave, it was because I was scared. I said if I sold the first one and it turned out really well for someone else, I would probably hate myself my entire life. The same thing with this one, I just felt that the fear, of not doing it, because my wife was afraid of me doing this film, she was crying, don’t do this, you’ll be embarrassed. I said I know, I know, but I said, I gotta try it, I feel it. So, Dixon in the movie, his trainer says that until a man, and this means a woman too, has been through a real baptism of fire, when you’re scared, when you’re hanging on, when someone’s hurting you, which is life is hurting you, then you’re gonna see what you’re really made of. And then you’re gonna get the only kind of respect in the world that matters, is self respect. And that’s pretty much what my journey has been, this has all been about getting Rocky’s self respect and maybe a little bit of that will wipe off on me.
Did you ever consider killing Rocky off? A lot of people think, he’s going to die.
No, I was – see, here’s what got messed up, in ‘Rocky 5,’ he was supposed to die. When all that changed, and became kind of like this soapy ending, it became kind of like a feathered fish. He’s supposed to like die in the street, he’s a street person, it’s kind of a morbid ending, but that’s where it was supposed to go. So we had this other kind of silly ending, that was so unfulfilling.
